Jennifer Van Syckle  0:00  
Even if you're a cat person, I bet you can't help but smile when you see a guide dog and its owner walking down the street. But did you know just how much effort and how many helping hands it takes to get the pair to that stage? Join us as we visit with Jacob Krissovich Once again, and he talks about guide dogs, what it takes to get a guide dog and his journey. I'm your host, Jennifer Van Syckle, longtime health care worker turned health educator. And thank you for joining us for this episode of Talking Health in the 406.

Jacob Krissovich  0:39  
I would have stepped out and I wouldn't have been killed. It was just a bicycle, but it would have hurt a lot. And I pulled Fife forward and he started to go forward and then hit the brakes and stopped totally saved me from getting nailed by that bike.

Jennifer Van Syckle  0:52  
I would love to visit more about Fife. So I understand Fife is an Oregonian. He is from Oregon. And so can you tell us how you what the process was? Did your wife sit down and fill out an application online? Or how did this all get started? I know you had somebody from Great Falls come down. But tell us about jumping into the guide dog world? Yeah, for sure.

Jacob Krissovich  1:15  
So first and foremost, before you get a guide dog, you have to be excellent with your white cane. If you don't have and they in that world, they call it again they call it orien mode orientation and mobility skills. They abbreviated as O and M. So if you hear somebody saying O and M, that's what they're talking about. But your O and M skills, which I'm just gonna say going forward, because it's a lot easier than saying orientation, sometimes your O and M skills have to be just really strong. Because the reason behind that is, again, your guide dog, unless it's a route that they've been doing a couple times, and every guide dogs different like  Fife, I show him once and he's just ridiculous. Like he could find the elevator right now. But he, he's not flawless. And so especially if somewhere you haven't gone before, again, he doesn't have a built in GPS. So I need to know where to go. And I need to be able to maintain my sense of orientation, like I need to know, you know, I'm still facing forward, I'm walking in a straight line, which is the hardest thing at first is keeping yourself walking in a straight direction and not to get turned around, you know, you, you know, when you're coming up to a street, you can tell by traffic, things like that's another big part is you have to be able to read traffic flow. So when you walk up to an intersection, you need to be able to know when it's safe to cross. Um, so you have to be able to do that with your white cane independently before they'll give you a guide dog. So like, you know, I had to, you know, and you have to be able to do it on smaller residential streets, but also large busy streets. So like I had to be able to cross like Custer Avenue. True test was crossing Montana Avenue. I guess that's a really local reference. But you know, like,

Jennifer Van Syckle  3:03  
the busiest streets in town? Yeah, four lane. Yeah. busy street. Yes.

Jacob Krissovich  3:07  
Thank you. Perfect. Yeah. And that's it. And you'll be able to shop across the places that have a traffic light, or just stop signs. Traffic lights can be tricky, because in Montana. And I hope this is something that they'll eventually change, you as a pedestrian share the Crossing time with the left turn lane. And that makes it tricky because you aren't always paying attention. And you're not it depending on where they're at. It could be hard to tell if they're trying to turn you know, straight turn if they're on the far opposite side from you. So you learn all those things. And once you do that, then your instructor who teaches you Orientation and Mobility has to sign off on Yes, this person's good to get a guide dog because one, they want to make sure you're gonna be safe, two they want to make sure that, you know, anybody who has a dog knows that they get sick, sometimes you know, and if they get sick. They want to know that you're not just pull bound, you know, if they get injured, they want to know that you can still get back, like if your dog gets hurt on a route that you can still get somewhere safe.

So anyways, after all that I once my instructor said, Yeah, you're good. I'll sign off on it, which was longer than I wanted it to be. I did ask her one point she did tell me no. Oh, she's not fun to hear. But anyways, after that, then the great thing is so with Internet and computers now, if done properly blind or visually impaired people can fill out forms for themselves. Cool. Yeah. It just has to be done correctly. And it's another advocacy thing where the State of Montana is actually pretty good about it. Their forms are accessible, which is great accessible, meaning I could fill it out start to finish by myself. If it requires a wet ink signature than I need to print it off after I fill it out and get help signing it but Guide Dogs for the Blind which is the school that Fife came from, who has campuses in Oregon and California their stuff is accessible. So I filled it out, I applied and first they do a phone interview with you. Because they're not just, they don't just give you a dog, you have to go through a whole process, they do a phone interview with you, they find out about your lifestyle, because they want to make sure that these guide dogs cost anywhere, depending on the school anywhere between $50,000 and $70,000 to train. So that's a large price tag. So they want to make sure that is being utilized properly. So if you're somebody who their criteria is they want to know that you you walk on average, at least a half mile a day, because they want don't want to just give out a dog that's not going to be used. Yeah, it's not, but it doesn't have to give you a pet, it's to give you an amazing companion. Don't get me wrong, Fife is amazing as a companion, but also, first and foremost, a mobility tool, something to help you navigate situations. So anyways, they do that they do a home visit where I applied during COVID. So they weren't doing in person visits. So I did like a video recording of my house and had a show on my house to show them that my house is also appropriate. They wanted to see the yard, things like that. And if you don't have a yard, if you're an apartment, they obviously still work with you. They just want to know with what you're working with. And then they ask you questions like, okay, cool. Yes, you walk a half mile. But what's your lifestyle? Are you someone who only walks? Not only but are you someone who walks a half mile to a mile? Or are you somebody who goes and does, you know, four miles a day and goes hiking? And you know, what do you do? Do you like to go a bunch of things outside you live in a city, because it results in different kinds of dogs. So I did all that I waited a year, which was hard. And I've finally got matched with Fife. So which meant that I had to go to their campus. And the really great thing about Guide Dogs for the Blind is they're fully charity based. So they're fully off of people's donations, there's no funding for them, as of yet. Any of the guide dog schools, not just them, there's no grants or funding for them, it's fully from people's own good hearts donating, they paid for my airfare over there. And then they paid for me to stay on their campus in Oregon for two weeks. Because you have to do two things that you have to bond with your dog, because they need to bond with you to work for you. And they they have that whole, they all they have that completely mapped out to the point where you don't even realize you're doing it. Wow. Um, but it is really like scientific in their approach about how they get you so bonded with your dog. And then and then you also do in the training aspect, because you don't know how to work a guide dog. There's hand commands, there's verbal commands, there's footwork, because dogs, obviously, you know, you they learn words and such for commands, but a vast majority of the world with their own species is through nonverbal communication. Yeah, they bark, but they go off of body language, and things like that. So with you, they actually perceive a lot more with your hand gestures and your footwork than they do verbal. So, so I had to learn all that. And yeah, it was a two week thing to take good care of you and I didn't have to pay a single cent. That's awesome. Yeah. Really, really cool. It is it is and after you leave, you have to pay for your food, but they will tell you and pay for your vet care. Hmm.

Jennifer Van Syckle  8:35  
So would you recommend somebody you know, I know, you know, on TV I see and other guide dog organization advertised. Maybe I'd like the southeastern US is it? Would it be a good idea to just apply to a whole bunch of them and see who you get in with? Essentially,

Jacob Krissovich  8:49  
at this point, honestly, I would pick, you know, the schools you like the best. Do your research because there's different schools that have different approaches. I want for guide dogs for the blind because one, they were close. And also, you know, yeah, Oregon doesn't get the crazy weather we have but they have what are called puppy raisers. They're volunteers, they don't get paid. They get their puppies at six weeks, and then they keep them to a little after a year. They are all over the western part. So I knew that there was a chance I would get a dog that was raised somewhere where there was snow and mountain and things like that

Jennifer Van Syckle  9:27  
Yeah, I yeah, I did. My undergrad in Klamath Falls, Oregon, which is right on the California border, South Central. And we had several of those puppy raisers. And yeah, those puppies were in every class and the dorms and yeah, through the snow and everything. Yeah, yeah. So

Jacob Krissovich  9:43  
I went with that because of my lifestyle, and I'm really big into the outdoors. Even before I got Fife, I still went and did backpacking trips with my white cane. It was harder, but I did it.

Jennifer Van Syckle  9:56  
So you mentioned a different type of dog. So like, if you're not maybe if you're like, No, I'm not hiking in mountains and stuff. I just I want to go to Walmart every now and then you maybe wouldn't have gotten a lab maybe would they have given you a different breed? Do they assign breeds then according to your arrays and personalities,

Jacob Krissovich  10:10  
okay, even within the labs, there's some labs that are like a little bit more low energy, they're good with just going hitting a couple stores and then sleeping Yeah, um, or they're better about navigating indoors than outdoors. They better about navigating crowded places, which is where like, the whole point of different schools comes into place picking one that suits you is that, you know, like, there's a school scene i, which is in New York, they do their training in like New York City. Schools on the East Coast. I knew outside of visiting and doing touristy things that I wasn't going to be doing big, crazy New York City type of things that I might go to, you know, I went to Orlando with my family and this spring, like, I knew I was gonna go to places like that, but I'm not realistically going to be going to places like New York City, at least not regularly. So that's something factor in your thing. But yeah, they have in different schools use different breeds. That's the other part too to factor in Guide Dogs for the Blind uses Golden Retrievers, labs, and they have some golden doodles for people with allergies. Some other schools still use German Shepherds. Some schools use like, guide dogs of the desert uses poodles. Interesting. So they use different breeds. So that's something to factor in. But they built up a waiting list because of COVID. So I would definitely recommend to applying to a bunch of different schools because you just don't know which one's going to get to your first right. And probably

Jennifer Van Syckle  11:41  
the one that's meant to be is the one that will get to you and and get you. And so when you are on your way out there, the school was already thinking, I'm thinking Fife, think in Fife for this. Yeah. And so they're, they kind of had already pre matched, or when you get out there where they like, ya know, maybe

Jacob Krissovich  11:57  
this other dog. So that's, that's, that was one thing I learned during the process is to have a dog in mind for you. But they don't tell you what anything about your dog. And how, that is like Christmas? Oh my gosh, it was seriously as an adult. Like Christmas, great comparison. It was killing me. And I tried, like pleading and begging with the person tell me so so excited. I tried tricking her into like leasing a pronoun of some sort. And yeah, nothing like it was always like it or like the dog. Gosh, darn it, I was like, what could you say it's black or yellow. And, and the whole reason behind that is they have a dog in mind for you. But they when you get there, there's multiple things that play into it. One, when you before you go there, have you hop on a treadmill, or use an app to track your walking speed. That's something I've already mentioned earlier, every guide dog has different different natural pace Fife walks quite quickly, some dogs walk a little bit more slowly, it just depends on, you know, your own natural pace. Some guide dog handlers I know that are older for a dog that's you know, a little bit slower because it's more stable, you know. Um, so it's just about your approach. And when I and it's weird, I did mine on a treadmill. And it's a little bit strange because you when you walk for white cane, you walk slower. It doesn't matter who you are, you walk slower than you do with a guide dog because with a white cane, part of it is finding the obstacles and makes me laugh because I'll hit my white cane. And I'm like that supposed to thank you for your concern. But it is supposed to, in fact, do that. I now know there's something there instead of finding it with my face with a guide dog or going around those things so you can go faster. And so it was on the treadmill. They're like, just see what feels natural. And I was like, I was like, well, this feels fast but natural, like I don't know what's natural, you know? And so when you get to school, they do this thing called Judo which regardless of the school orJuno, sorry, Judo is a different thing Juno where they have you hold on to a harness and they have an instructor walk and they increase their speed and they basically act like a guide dog and see what your speed is. And I was off on my speed a lot it turned out I wanted to walk much faster when I had somebody that I trusted guiding me by the instructor because you know a trusted dog right away. And so with that they matched me with a dog that was much faster than what I would have originally gotten so that's the other component going back to your original question of why they don't tell you is there's that that goes into it sometimes the chemistry is not there and it doesn't work or the dog is willing to do this work for an instructor their trainer but they build up a rapport with but when they get assigned somebody new they don't work hmm And while I was actually at the school, what did happen to a gentleman where the dog was doing everything, right, but she didn't pull very hard. And so that was hard for him because he didn't have a good sense of where she was trying to take him. She was really soft and easygoing.

So they actually changed his dog after about four days. So, so yeah, they had Fife in mind for me. And the funny thing is, is that when they looked at my profile and activities I like to do and everything, and how much I like to hike and the distances, they're like, there's no way that he actually and with my height, they're like, there's no way he actually walks at the speed. And so they picked Fife out, but then they had an alternatives in case I really did walk as slow as I thought. So yeah, that answers your question. Yeah. So another thing with guide dogs is that's really cool is when you're approaching a street crossing. If you know, it's the one time they call it Intelligent Disobedience is the one time where your dogs allowed to disobey you. So if you make a mistake, and there's different scenarios, I could provide one here in just a second. But if you try to cross the street, and it's not safe, your dog will either a refuse to move, if they can already tell it's not safe, or if you talk to start to step on the street, because it is safe. And then a driver blows a stop sign or starts to go. They'll either stop, and won't go forward, or they'll start to backup. So you go backwards, or they'll step in front of you. Dogs, each dog has a different approach. But the whole mindset behind that is it's not safe, so they won't cross and he actually has done it twice. Because there's certain situations like you're really good at reading traffic patterns, but where things happen. One was, I was downtown, and there's a crosswalk that's in the middle of the walking Mall. That splits it in half, and there's a big hill and bicyclist was coming up. And bikes are really hard to hear because of their smaller tires, and how fast they go. And if it would have been with my white cane, I 100% what it was, I would have stepped out in front of this bicyclist and because how fast he was going, he or she I don't know that they I think in their mindset, they didn't want to stop because of the hill. And they to be fair, they may not have even noticed me they were focused on making up the hill because it has a steep hill and if you slow down and so I would have stepped out and I wouldn't have been killed. It was just a bicycle, but it would have hurt a lot. And I pulled Fife forward and he started to go forward and then hit the brakes and stopped totally saved me from getting nailed by that bike. Another one was by Pita Pit, the car. One of the things that I go off of is with Helena theres winter, so longer standing gravel all the time. They come through with Street Sweepers but you know it, a lot of times there's still some gravel and so you can hear the car start to slow down. And so he started to slow down and I was like, Okay, it's gonna stop. And I started to tell Fife to go and step forward. Well, he did a rolling stop, he like stopped and then went. And again, with white cane, I would have stepped out and gotten hit by this guy. And somebody came out a Pita Pit at the same time and told me that basically what it was was the person was looking down on their phone, and just even noticed that I was there. So Fife again, did his Intelligent Disobedience and stopped at me safe. So that's another cool feature of comics.

Jennifer Van Syckle  18:36  
It's very cool. Yeah, that's, that's huge. Dogs are so cool. And so I think down the road, when you know, heaven forbid, but the day comes that Fife's no longer with us. Yes. Would you get bumped right back to the top of the guide dogs list? Because you were an alumni have their program? Or are you stuck at Square zero again, going all the way through it?

Jacob Krissovich  19:00  
That's a really good question. Because most of the time what happens is guide dogs do what they call us retirement. So strange things happened obviously cancer and things like that. But even then a lot of times there's they know that you have X amount of time, roughly. And so what they do is they retire dogs, and they put you on the list early. So most dogs have an eight to 10 year working career. So that would mean that they usually retire somewhere between 10 and 12. After retirement, they go on to be either just your pet dog and they get to just enjoy the remainder of their life. Doing pet dog things or and that's not to say Fife doesn't need to do those things. That when it's harnesses off he gets to be a goofball at the end of the day, but anyways, they they retire your dog and while you're, you work your dog up until you get matched Again, okay, so you don't really get bumped to the top of the list, but they, they just kind of put you on

Jennifer Van Syckle  20:08  
the list and kind of plan for you, you're coming. Yes,

Jacob Krissovich  20:11  
they're match, you go get your dog, your dog retires. And you can either a choose to keep your dog, your retired dog, we're B, you can choose to place it with someone like family or a friend that you trust. Or if you don't have either of those situations available to you, because that does happen. Sometimes people live in apartments and their family lives in apartment, they already have a dog and you only have one or you're not allowed dogs. Once he's retired, he once he's retired, he loses his privileges as a guide dog. So if you're not allowed to dog in your apartment, unless your landlord is willing to work with you, they don't have to. So there's people at that point, what they do is they get the dog back to their school. And they have a ridiculously long waiting list of people. Oh, I can imagine , one they can go back to the puppy raiser because sometimes the puppy raisers or you don't want the dog. But you have a relationship with them. So they're more than happy. Awesome. So. So yeah, roundabout way and more information than you asked for. But yes, that is what happens. And if your dog passes, early, and unexpectedly, they really do try to work with you and get you dog as quickly as possible. That's great. Because you're also grieving and all those things. Yes.

Jennifer Van Syckle  21:30  
Yeah. Yeah. Kind of a double. Yeah, definitely. Awesome. Cool. I think we've covered about everything, is there anything else you want to visit about or put a plug in for or anything like that, while you're here,

Jacob Krissovich  21:46  
I would just say that, you know, amazing, whether it's Guide Dogs for the Blind, or another guide, dog school, they're all driven by donations. So you know, that's in something in your heart or something you can do. And that's, it's great. It goes through really great cause it's one of the most direct ways you can help people that nonprofits, all of them are nonprofits, at least all the guide dog schools, there's other specialty schools that are but also, again, if you know, you are starting to lose your vision, go ahead and get your name on blind low vision services list, they want to help you they just, it's a hard field, there's not a whole lot of people trained in the field. And, you know, fundings just kind of tight sometimes. And so getting him on that list, you can always cancel, also pick up an Association for the Blind and talk to him pick both talk to his talk to somebody that helps. And also, I guess, just know that whether it's blindness, or any other disability, or a chronic disease, it your life's not over. It may feel like it at that time, but with time and acceptance in training and working through things and it's going to be hard. You're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna mess things up. You know, if you're blind, or have mobility issues, you might burn yourself on the stove, you know, but you you learn, you know, I, I cook, I clean my wifei might say not great, but but, um, but that's just more because my personality than anything and you being a classic guy, um, but I know I wakeboard, I backpack, I hike, I kayak. I go to my kids sporting events, you know, I their specialty things that you can buy. I play soccer with my kids with a ball that has bells in it. And I play basketball with my kids as a bell on it. There's beepers you can attach to things so you know where the hoop is, or the goal is. The nice thing is this point, there's been enough brave, determined ingenuitive people with disabilities, that I guarantee you, whatever you're wanting to do, at this point, you're not going to be the first one trying to do it. I know people who mountain that rock climb out in the wilderness that are blind. There's people who waterski that are wheelchair users. I mean, it just there's a will there's a way and your life's not over you just need to find how to go about it. So that guess that's all I was saying party.

Jennifer Van Syckle  24:33  
I love it. That's great. A whole new Yeah, just a different aspect on life a different flavor of life. That's awesome. Cool. Well, thank you for everything Jacob. We definitely appreciate your time and coming in today. Great. Thank you to Jacob for sharing his amazing story and journey with us. And thanks to Fife for sharing his time as well. If you would like any information or more information on anything You heard in this podcast series, please visit our website at TalkingHealthi the406.mt.gov. And thank you for joining us for this episode of Talking Health in the 406 where we're one community under the big sky. Until next time, take care

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